Chickens in the Road Forum

A A A
Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Hot Press Soap process question
May 27, 2013
12:31 pm
Avatar
amysapothecary
Banty
Members
Forum Posts: 10
Member Since:
April 9, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hello  

I'm Amy and I'm fairly new to the whole soap making thing.  I successfully make a hard bar castile soap.  It turned out amazing so I thought I'd try to do the Vanilla Sugar Dreams soap Suzanne posted. I did change up some of the oils.  I didn't want lard or palm. But I did run everything through a soapcal. As I was making this, I wanted to do a comparison between the two methods. I didn’t know which way I’d like more CP (which is how I did the castile) or HP so I did it both ways. At trace I took some soap aside and put it into molds to go the CP route then I cooked the rest for the HP process. My HP soap is super sticky and SOFT. So soft I can actually cut it with a butter knife. The CP stuff seems appropriately hard (it was much harder than the HP) Is this a function of HP or did I goof somehow? I've covered both with towels and its been almost a week.  They both are feeling very soft to me.  Any idea what could have happened?  

 

Thanks!

June 1, 2013
6:24 pm
Avatar
Amerayl
Bisbee, AZ
Mighty Chicken
Members
Forum Posts: 127
Member Since:
February 15, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hi Amy,

How long did you cook it for? How did you cook it? What is your recipe so we can see what happened? Sorry to answer you with more questions. Cindy P might have some more to ask as well.

I know where I am is quite humid so I do a water discount, but with HP you really don't want that. HP usually sets up faster than CP and you can use it sooner. So I'm not sure what went wrong with yours unless you can give more information as to how you tried to HP and how long and such.

 

June 2, 2013
7:30 am
Avatar
CindyP
Hart, MI
Admin
Forum Posts: 7942
Member Since:
October 17, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Sorry, I didn't see this one come through!  How is the soap now, a few weeks later?

Those would be the questions I had, too.   Post your recipe?  Different oils have different properties and will leave you with different soap.  That's why I use SoapCalc...it will actually give you the properties of the end soap.

And like Amerayl said, humidity will mess with it just like it does everything else.

 

“Learn all you can from the mistakes of others. You won’t have time to make them all yourself.”  ― Alfred Sheinwold

June 5, 2013
1:50 pm
Avatar
amysapothecary
Banty
Members
Forum Posts: 10
Member Since:
April 9, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I totally don't mind more questions though it took me a while to locate my "notes" uhum.  Anyway, I did use soap cal.  I had 30% in the water as percent of oil weight.  5% super fat/discount. My recipe:

Coconut oil 22 oz

Olive Oil 9.5 oz

Crisco 2 oz

Castor Oil 3 oz

Water 10.95 oz and the lye was 5.67 oz

 

The hardness was suppose to be 53 in the range of 29 -54.  I melted my oil and made my lye water.  I added the lye water together with the oil around 110. Stirred to a trace.  Here's where I may have gone wrong.  I added sunflower soaked coffee grinds 2 tablespoons citric acid (to neutralize) plus the ground vanilla bean and scent.  I put this traced mixture into a mold (btw this soap is now also incredibly soft too)  then proceed to continue to cook mixture.  It cooked 2 hours or so.  

 

If I've left anything out please ask. Do you think I can just rebatch this stuff or just suck it up and use the slimy soft soap cause I'd hate to just throw it out.  

 

Thanks for all your help!

June 5, 2013
2:06 pm
Avatar
Amerayl
Bisbee, AZ
Mighty Chicken
Members
Forum Posts: 127
Member Since:
February 15, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hi Amy,

Uh, can I ask why you added the citric acid? Because I think what you did was essentially, uh, neutralized the lye. Basically you have some really, really, REALLY superfatted soap.

I'm not sure if you can save this batch, because you don't know how much extra lye to add. I have tried to save a batch similar to this (a friend had forgotten some of the lye) by rebatching with some extra lye, but in the end it was still on the soft side. It made a fairly decent face bar.

CindyP, what do you think?

June 5, 2013
4:54 pm
Avatar
amysapothecary
Banty
Members
Forum Posts: 10
Member Since:
April 9, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Ya know what, I am not sure if I added citric acid or not.  It seems to clean. Can't say it's super moisturizing though.   Is there a test I can do? I know I do add citric acid to neutralize when I make liquid soap.  But it isn't in my notes for this I just assumed I'd added it cause I thought I had remembered doing it but it might have been for my shampoo.  

 

That brings up another question, why do you add citric acid to liquid but not hard soap? 

 

If you're making dish washer soap can you just melt a hard castile bar and add borax and citric acid?

 

Sorry to add questions.  I appreciate your help.  Is the citric acid why it is soft?

 

 

June 5, 2013
7:24 pm
Avatar
Amerayl
Bisbee, AZ
Mighty Chicken
Members
Forum Posts: 127
Member Since:
February 15, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

According to soapcalc, you soap should come out as a nice hard bar. So if you didn't add the citric acid, I have no idea why it isn't a hard bar.

KOH isn't as pure as NaOH so when making liquid soap, you need to use a lye excess. Since you probably don't want extra lye just floating around in your soap, you need to neutralize the lye. In liquid soap that is usually done with citric acid, borax doesn't neutralize so much as provides a buffer. Or something scientific like that.

The YouTube channel Soaping 101 made a (or tried to) soap from lemons and she explains a little to why the soap didn't work.

Basically, if I understand correctly, the citric acid neutralized the lye before it could react with the oils to make soap.

With bar soap, since most soapers tend to superfat you don't need any extra step to neutralize lye since there really isn't any left, just extra oil.

Making a laundry soap, people add the washing soda and borax to help free floating mineral in water from attaching to soap. I wouldn't recommend using bar soap in a dishwasher because then you have an episode from "I Love Lucy", don't ask how I know. But yes, citric acid is used with borax and washing soda in a dishwasher detergent.

If you have pH strips, I'd check to see where your pH is on the soap.

I don't mind questions. I don't have all the answers, so I can say what I know. I have to say, if it was me, I'd probably rebatch the soap with some more lye solution. Cook it a bit on low, then take out a small piece, let that cool and see if I like it, if not, perhaps add a little more lye solution and cook it a bit longer. I just can't stand or afford to lose a batch. happy-flowerMost soapers I know would just toss a batch like that because it is difficult to know how much lye to add. If you add too much then, you might get a lye heavy soap.

June 6, 2013
10:34 am
Avatar
amysapothecary
Banty
Members
Forum Posts: 10
Member Since:
April 9, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I don't really want to just dump batches either.  Oil is expensive.  Right now I feel sorta like I'm wasting it anyway because it's basically just melting in the bath.  I looked over everything and the more I think about it I really don't think I did add citric acid.  Do you think I can add the stuff I "cooked" with the stuff I didn't?  For this much how much lye do you think. The same amount as  the original batch called for?  Half that maybe ?    

 

Thanks for this amazing explanation. It was very very helpful. I don't think i will try the soap dishwasher thing.  It was funny on "I Love Lucy",  not so much in real life.   Can you make liquid dishwasher soap?

June 6, 2013
2:30 pm
Avatar
Amerayl
Bisbee, AZ
Mighty Chicken
Members
Forum Posts: 127
Member Since:
February 15, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Yes, if you have a big enough crock pot, throw both the HP and the CP into the pot and let it all melt down. Then you could try adding 1 oz of NaOH to about 4 oz of water and mix that as best you can into the melted soap.  At least, that is one method to try and save your soap.

I am wondering about your lye now if you don't think it was the citric acid. What kind of lye (brand type) did you use and how old is it? Another thought is if you make liquid soap as well, maybe you inadvertently added KOH instead of NaOH. If that is a possiblity, you probably don't have to add any extra lye, but could possibly firm up the soap with some salt water or just cook it all and make it a liquid soap. Just throwing out some thoughts.

Your Welcome, I like to try to help. If was really funny to see all the suds coming out of my washer. I was making my own dishwasher powder, but it still wasn't doing a great job. I had started to add one small soap flake with the rest of the powder and they came out sparkly. So silly me, though for a very dirty load, how about adding 2 small flakes. LOL, I was mopping up suds like a mad woman. Definitely like "I Love Lucy", my husband came in and laughed his butt off. I went back to just buying dishwasher detergent for awhile. Although I was about to attempt to make the molded portioned dishwasher tabs when my dishwasher bit the dust. Can't afford another one, so it is hand washing for now.

I have never attempted to make a liquid dishwasher detergent before. I know the powdered homemade stuff was a pain because the citric acid make it a brick. So making the portioned tabs seemed like a better idea. Now I have made a hand dishwashing soap before. It didn't bring a lot of suds to the sink of water, so I just swiped it on the dishrag and just washed that way. I am thinking about experimenting with making a liquid hand dish soap that does bubble, because I do like to see some bubbles. That is just my brain, I like the suds. I thought I would try Failor's method of adding solid bar soap to the cook of liquid soap. I am also going to experiment with adding just a tiny bit of NaOH to one of my liquid soaps and bypass the adding of a solid bar. Boy it is fun to experiment. I did love the hand dish soap, but I was gifted with a lot of Dawn, so I haven't made it again. Despite not being bubbly water, it did clean my dishes quite well.

June 11, 2013
7:14 pm
Avatar
amysapothecary
Banty
Members
Forum Posts: 10
Member Since:
April 9, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Somehow my last response didn't go through. I like suds too. My lye is about a month old (maybe a month and half).  The brand is Comstar Pure Lye.  Irs a bead form.  I has also wondred if you thought I should cook it down as in a hot process or try CP.  Anyway, I went ahead and did CP. Though we keep bees and I thought "Hey, maybe I can just add a bit of beeswax".  Nope, still very soft soap.   THis actually made is more liquid-y.  Not sure that's a word.  Pretty sure it isn't. Anyway, I had basically very thick liquid soap. So I scooped out some of it to fill up and just use like a body gel.  At this point, I hadn't added any more lye.  So once I had filed my squeeze jar, I put the rest in my crock pot and melted it all down.  I added almost 1 oz of ly solution to 4 oz water.  Mixed to a light trace put it in my mold.  So now two days later I went to unmold it and can't.  Yep even softer than what it started out as.  I am completely flummoxed.  I guess at this point, I'm going to melt it back down and leave it as a thick liquid soap?  What do you think?

 

 

Much much thanks for your help! 

June 11, 2013
9:45 pm
Avatar
CindyP
Hart, MI
Admin
Forum Posts: 7942
Member Since:
October 17, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

One of the big differences between HP and CP is the amount of water you use.  I can't believe this didn't crumble actually with the 3 ounces of water not used for HP.  Water will evaporate when cooking so use a 38% water as %h of oils.  So in this recipe, it would have been 13.87 oz water.   So with this last try to fix, by adding the extra water and not cooking it back out, you now have a "liquid" soap.  Have you tested if the lye is neutralized?

With the recipe you listed above, I wouldn't use this for a body soap.  You have a very high percentage of coconut oil, which in bar soap is very drying to the skin (high in lauric acid).  This wouldn't be a conditioning soap at all.  Is it oily?

I would dump it back into the crock pot and cook it until it comes to the waxy mashed potato stage.

HTH!

“Learn all you can from the mistakes of others. You won’t have time to make them all yourself.”  ― Alfred Sheinwold

June 11, 2013
9:52 pm
Avatar
CindyP
Hart, MI
Admin
Forum Posts: 7942
Member Since:
October 17, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
Total oil weight 2.281
Water as percent of oil weight 38 %
Super Fat/Discount 5 %
Lye Concentration 29.053 %
Water : Lye Ratio 2.442:1
Sat : Unsat Ratio 58 : 42
Iodine 41
INS 195
Fragrance Ratio 0
Fragrance Weight 0 Oz
Ingredient Pounds Ounces Grams
Water 0.867 13.87 393.208
Lye - NaOH 0.355 5.68 161.016
# Oil/Fat % Pounds Ounces Grams
1 Coconut Oil, 76 deg 60.28 1.375 22 623.689
2 Olive Oil 26.03 0.594 9.5 269.32
3 Crisco, new w/palm 5.48 0.125 2 56.699
4 Castor Oil 8.22 0.188 3 85.048
    Totals 100.01 2.281 36.496 1034.643
Soap Bar Quality Suggested Range Your Recipe
Hardness 29 - 54 53
Cleansing 12 - 22 40
Conditioning 44 - 69 39
Bubbly 14 - 46 48
Creamy 16 - 48 20
Iodine 41 - 70 41
INS 136 - 165 195
Lauric 29
Myristic 11
Palmitic 10
Stearic 3
Ricinoleic 7
Oleic 25
Linoleic 7
Linolenic 1

 

The Iodine value is how hard the bar will be when cooled. 100% olive oil has a lower iodine value and is soft when it comes out of the mold (HP is all I've done) but hardens up as it sits and sits and sits.

The INS value has to do with the tracing.  The higher the INS, the faster it traces.  It's said the best recipes have around 160.  

“Learn all you can from the mistakes of others. You won’t have time to make them all yourself.”  ― Alfred Sheinwold

June 12, 2013
12:01 am
Avatar
Amerayl
Bisbee, AZ
Mighty Chicken
Members
Forum Posts: 127
Member Since:
February 15, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

CindyP said

I would dump it back into the crock pot and cook it until it comes to the waxy mashed potato stage.

HTH!

I agree with CindyP, either cook that puppy in the crock awhile or put it away in a closet somewhere and forget about it for a long while. Or just use it like you were as a very soft soap, like Cream soap.

Sorry I wasn't clear before, to rebatch it, I would put the soap (usually in chunks) in a crock to melt as much as it does. Then I've added the extra lye solution and blended as well as I could and just cook it for a good long while. My crock runs hot, so I just put mine on warm and look in on it every so often and after about 2 hours I test for pH. If it still isn't done, I cook it for up to 4 hours. I'm not far from the crock, but I don't fuss with it either. I've had a few times the soap got so hot, it crawled out and made a mess. Thus how I discovered mine will cook just fine on warm. LOL

I love HP and CP and, well, all manners of soap making really.happy-flower

Your lye doesn't sound like it is old. So it probably isn't the problem.

So I am stumped.

June 12, 2013
10:27 pm
Avatar
amysapothecary
Banty
Members
Forum Posts: 10
Member Since:
April 9, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

So I've tried to save this stuff so many times I hope I don't confuse anyone.  The very first time I made this recipe, I split the soap in two to try out HP (which I'm totally gun shy about now because of this experience), I did test the soap for neutrality and it cleared.  I honestly haven't done another test since I have a) re melted it and added beeswax (since I hadn't added lye I figured pH was probably the same. b) I re re melted it and added the almost 1 oz lye to the (re re) batch.  I attempted to unmold the soap and it was so so soft I was supremely discouraged, disappointed. So I just wrapped it back up in my towel and put it back in my box.  I just haven't had the heart to have yet another failure.  I have been using the soft soap version (where I'd added the beeswax but not the extra lye).  It seems fine for my body but not at all for sensitive parts or my face really. It slightly burns (even though it tests neutral). I can't honestly say if it is drying or not because I have been using a coffee infused body oil scrub after I use the soap as follow up just cause I'd made it recently and wanted to use it up.  It is definitely not oily though.  

 

So just to make sure I have my head straight. At this point I should cook it down to the beautiful mash potato paste like I would if I were making this a liquid soap and well turn this into liquid soap?  I shouldn't probably add anymore lye?  

 

So low iodine number = hard soap.  Since my recipe is 41 just on the range scale my bar should have been super hard?  If I have that right, it's too bad nobody told my soap LOL.  Oh well.  

 

Really I cannot thank you guys enough for all the patients and advice with this. I find myself very grateful that you all have taken the time to try to help me.  I did make a batch of just an ordinary vanilla soap (CP) and it was all very successful so at least I can still do that. LOL.  HP may just be out of my reach.  Do you think I could do the CPH where you then put it into the oven.  I've not really baked any of my soap. Do you think that could be an avenue? 

 

Thanks so so much

June 13, 2013
12:47 am
Avatar
Amerayl
Bisbee, AZ
Mighty Chicken
Members
Forum Posts: 127
Member Since:
February 15, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Coconut oil is harsh for a lot of people. Your recipe has a lot in it and it wouldn't make a good facial bar or one for sensitive areas. Coconut oil does make for very hard bar of soap though, so I'm not sure why it is so soft.

Rebatching your soap will help get out any excess water which may be causing it to be soft. It is just cooking it until the soap is all melty and almost liquid most like a paste. Then re molding again.

You can add more liquid and make it a kind of liquid soap if you wanted. I don't particular like the texture as the soap will want to take on kind of a snot like consistency after awhile as it tries to form crystals as solid soap does. I really don't like that. That is just me.

If you don't mind the soap being scoopable, then by all means, continue on.

You can do CPOP, which is Cold Process Oven Process. Just set your oven to 170F or the lowest it will go, then pop the soap in, turn off oven and just leave it until it is cool. Some people do like to turn the soap every so often. In my opinion, it really is just forcing or encourages the gell phase. You will still have to wait the 4 weeks to use the soap. It doesn't really cook the soap like HP does. I always get tiny bubbles on the surface of my soap unless I turn off the oven right after it gets up to temperature. And I don't like the way the fragrance lingers after for awhile. I made brownies once after my soap was in the oven, blech. Others have successfully done CPOP and use it all the time though, so give it a try and see what you think.

As for HP, after trace you cooked it until it looks a little like vaseline/translucent? It is just weird that the soap is still soft after all that. My HP is much harder than my CP soaps at first.

June 13, 2013
10:28 am
Avatar
amysapothecary
Banty
Members
Forum Posts: 10
Member Since:
April 9, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Sigh, yeah I cooked the begebbies out of it.  It was a beautiful translucent color very very thick amber color paste like.  That's when I put it in the mold but it never got any harder than that thick pasty stage. It was very dense and certainly held together but it was soft soft soft. Even after a week.  I literally cut it with my butter knife just because I could.  I was so sad.  Should it be rock hard coming out out the crock pot?  Like hard soap bar ...kind of hard?  

 

I have to admit, my soap I'm just using as a gel is absolutely on the snot scale. Though I'm getting over the consistency.  Can't tell much if you rub it in a wash cloth. LOL. I hate to throw away all of that oil.  And I'm completely out of ideas. I'm going to hold off on CPOP just because I have a lot of baking to do in the coming days and I don't want to mess my food up on top of this.  So thanks for the advice.  Better safe than sorry for sure.  

 

Maybe I should put it back in the crock pot and cook it again?  Try the HP process over?  What do you think. 

Forum Timezone: America/New_York

Most Users Ever Online: 183

Currently Online:
27 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

Joelle: 2759

Leahld22: 2738

Ross: 2426

MaryB: 1783

JeannieB: 1500

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 15

Members: 11698

Moderators: 3

Admins: 4

Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 14

Topics: 3495

Posts: 67385

Newest Members:

intellektpiosi, DislakPlece, TQJerry, Superchipssyq, Linksysejc, Extractionlkf

Moderators: Pete: 8497, wvhomecanner: 3159, Flatlander: 1643

Administrators: Suzanne McMinn: 7368, emiline220: 16, CindyP: 7942, BuckeyeGirl: 4921





Sign up for the Chickens in the Road Newsletter





Sections

  1. The Farmhouse Blog
  2. The Chickens in the Road Forum
  3. Farm Bell Recipes

Latest Posts on the Farmhouse Blog:

Daily Farm






If you would like to help support the overhead costs of this website, you may donate. Thank you!


Forum Buzz



Site Info

Privacy Policy, Disclosure, Disclaimer, and Terms of Use

Contact