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Bread falls after raising!
November 19, 2011
2:57 pm
Ross
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That is a good method for a small batch but not very convenient for a batch that used a five pound bag of flour. Kneading or folding stretches the gluten strands and developes them. It can happen with a lot of kneading or it can happen with short periods of kneading interspersed with longer resting periods. I have tried almost every method I have ever heard of and over kneading by hand will almost never happen . The most important thing to be aware of while kneading is the amount of additional flour that you use because that will change the recipe.

November 19, 2011
7:38 pm
MrsFuzz
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I was specifically addressing Aprilejoi's post where she says that she uses her KA for 90% of the kneading.  This can easily lead to over-kneading, and the dense dough that she describes.  Other things that can lead to over-dense dough:  Too much flour, not enough liquid, not enough yeast, old or ineffective yeast, over-proofing, under-proofing…….So yeah, pretty much anything.  The best way to prevent a lot of those problems is to find a well-proven recipe (like Grandmother Bread), preferably that uses weight measures instead of volume measures.  The King Arthur Flour book "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques & Recipes Cookbook" is great for this, all recipes are given with weights, both metric & standard, and baker's percentages.  Doing your recipes by weight eliminates a lot of the guess work.  Good kitchen scales are relatively inexpensive, and worth their weight in gold if you like baking (and most especially if you like being able to reproduce excellent results).

Anyway, for people who don't like, don't want, or aren't able to knead by hand, folding is a great option for "normal" sized batches of bread dough.  I use it regularly for Suzanne's 2-loaf Grandmother Bread recipe without problems.

I will say that the best way to learn about your dough, and how it feels and acts at all different stages is to do things by hand!  The best way to know what terms like "smooth and pliable" and "loose and shaggy" mean is to see and feel them.  You learn what proper results are from the "windowpane test" by seeing it and feeling it and noticing the results in the finished product.  Maybe even keep a log of what you tried and what the results were, and things you can do differently for the next loaf.  Find a tried and true recipe, and work at it until you feel you've mastered it (Personally, I defined "mastered" as when I could reliably produce loaves with the characteristics I wanted).  Then transferring what you learned to a different recipe is a lot easier.  Bread is for most of us,  I think, more of a process than it is a result.  It took me about a year of making bread once a week before I felt like I really had a good grasp.  Although I'm still working on my baguette recipe…That's the other good thing about bread.  There's always something to try, to improve!

Wearing cowboy boots does not make one an agriculturist….Having at least 3 varieties of poop on them does.
November 19, 2011
8:10 pm
Ross
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mrsFuzz, You and I could spend hours comparing notes and technique. I don't disagree with anything you have said. I feel that until someone has made exactly the same recipe a couple of dozen times they can't "know" that particular bread.

November 19, 2011
8:16 pm
MrsFuzz
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Absolutely agreed, Ross.  :)  I am always learning here, and enjoy the chance to share as well.  I just hope that the people in this thread who are frustrated with their bread keep trying!  It's soooo rewarding when you feel like you've "gotten it right," if there is such a thing with bread.

Wearing cowboy boots does not make one an agriculturist….Having at least 3 varieties of poop on them does.
November 19, 2011
8:21 pm
Pete
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December 28, 2008
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MrsFuzz, you are exactly right!  I do not like it at all that the arthritic hands now require me to use the KA for kneading almost exclusively.  And it is quite easy to over knead using it.  For most recipes, I find that it is done when it crawls up the dough hook!  However, with even a slightly larger recipe, that is not true.

As a general rule, underkneading is better than over kneading most of the time.  And I always try to have a very long and slow rise time.  Not always time for that, but the taste, texture, and consistency is superior.  At least in THIS kitchen!

We can not say it often enough, though - conditions vary in all our homes, so no one way of doing anything will work for everyone.

Anulos qui animum ostendunt omnes gestemus!
November 19, 2011
8:32 pm
Pete
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Oh, and I forgot to add that I have finally broken down and am using a bread machine.  I really don't like that concept at all simply because there is very little controlling for variables.  And that the entire reason I got started making bread in the first place was to slap the dough around!  (Yes, it relieves a LOT of tension and frustration!!)

But, have found that with one machine, the loaf always falls unless I use bread flour in it.  The other machine makes fine loaves no matter what flour is used, but I must reduce the amount of yeast or the loaf crawls completely out of the pan.  Go figure!

Anulos qui animum ostendunt omnes gestemus!
November 19, 2011
8:33 pm
MrsFuzz
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Definitely, Pete.  There are SO many variables to baking bread, and that's what I think makes it difficult for beginners, especially those who don't have someone to learn from directly.

Another note about machine-kneading-I use it almost exclusively now for ease, but only because I know exactly what the dough looks like when properly kneaded.  I know what to look for & when to quit.  I am trying to teach my Dad to bake bread, and he too has really bad arthritis.  I show him how to do a recipe with the KA, but he gets frustrated because he asks how I know when it's done kneading, and I tell him "I just do."  So then I have to really think about what it is exactly I'm looking for in the dough, and how to show him/describe it to him so he can recreate it without the benefit of prior experience.  That's the hard part!

Wearing cowboy boots does not make one an agriculturist….Having at least 3 varieties of poop on them does.
November 19, 2011
9:53 pm
Ross
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Look closely at my videos of bread kneading and the difference in the way the bread comes together on the second kneading. Someday when nancy is home and i am making bread i willrecord the complete process.

November 19, 2011
11:11 pm
holstein woman
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Hey Pete, did you ever have problems with the bread machine leaving flour in the corners and not even getting wet? I quit using mine for that reason. I tried everything I could think of even following the manufacturers troubleshooting notes and then went online to find a way to cure the problem. I have made bread for years in small and large amounts by hand, but this house just wouldn't allow for rising of bread I don't care how hard I tried. That is the ONLY reason I bought the thing. I finally found out if I use rapid rise yeast and bread flour I can make it by hand and get it to rise with no problem, but I would sometimes like to use the breead machine. After all I spent the money on it, I should get something out of it, shouldn't I?????

November 19, 2011
11:36 pm
Ross
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Try putting the liquid in first and then the dry stuff. It works better that way when i am mixing grout for tile work.

November 20, 2011
12:56 pm
Joell
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happy-flowerI use my bread machine for the kneading process cause of shoulder problems. I am on my third machine and find found a way that works perfectly for me. I use milk so I microwave it until it is good and hot, but not boiling, then add my dry good and oil– stir it all together in my big 2 cup  pyrex measuring cup, pour that in the machine, making sure the mixture is not too hot, then spoon in the flour and add the yeast, hit the start button and check the corners when it is mixing, I use a rubbler spatula to move any flour from the corners so the dough ball can pick it up. It is also a good time to see if the dough needs a bit more liquid or flour. This is a method that has worked very well for me.

Happiness begins within yourself
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