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12:30 am
December 9, 2009
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farmershae
| | Happy Valley, OR | |
| Big Chicken | posts 13 | |
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Hey folks, I guess this post lives in the barn, since the livestock guardian lives there with the animals….
http://www.vaildaily.com/apps/…..ofile=1062
This article has been making the rounds (online, as well as in print) and has me concerned. We always expect to have LGD's when we live full time on the farm and have never heard of any negative interactions with people. I understand they can, and should, be menacing when their livestock is threatened, but this case seems extreme. These were Great Pyrenees – which seem to be very prevalent on farms. Here are some of the questions it brings up for me:
- Has anyone heard of this extreme of human attack from a LGD before?
- What types of aggressive/assertive/guarding behavior have you seen from your LGD? Toward both animal and human.
- And possibly most importantly, I'm concerned about liability issues. How do LGD owners protect themselves and their farms from uninformed individuals and the problems they can cause?
Thanks for your input!
Farmer Shae
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10:27 am
December 9, 2009
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BuckeyeGirl
| | N.E. Ohio | |
| Admin
| posts 3992 | |
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Having read that through, I think that is an isolated instance, of dogs left out with their flock in a near wilderness situation, and being expected to fend for themselves and the flock to a large degree. I’m not experienced with LGDs and I’m not trying to pretend that I am, though I feel I’m reasonably experienced with keeping and training animals in general. If you keep an LGD with your stock, they can still be well socialized with family and in the environment you expect them to live in, I have never heard of such extreme behavior, though I’ll bet any stranger entering your pasture would be warned off. They are supposed to be left to guard their charges true, but wherever they live has different situations and they need to be taught that people should be watched, not eaten (or even chewed on generally).
All breeds have individuals which may have an attitude which is more aggressive than others, but on the whole, I haven’t heard of this being a problem in a family farm situation. I have no idea about liability issues, but posting the property should probably be done, I mean, LGD does stand for Livestock GUARDian Dog after all. That article sounds like a pretty drastic situation all around.
In the case of such a large and powerful dog, which has been purposely bred to be on gaurd of their charges, I think it's extra important to know WHO you are getting them from, be SURE of the history and temperment of the bloodline (even if they're of mixed breed, they still have bloodlines!). Are both parents of sound temperment? Are the past litters doing well as Guardians? And to throroughly research the individual breed you are considering. From what I have seen, some have been bred for more extreme conditions than others.
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If tomatoes are a fruit, then isn’t ketchup technically a
smoothie?
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10:44 am
December 9, 2009
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Debnfla3
| | North West Florida | |
| Mighty Chicken | posts 218 | |
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When you say these dogs are left out with the herd to fend for themselves, do you mean the owners don't FEED them everyday? I mean like….take dogfood/scraps out to them? They have to hunt down their own food?
I imagine these dogs are perfectly able to hunt down, kill and eat their prey but wouldn't this just make them into feral dogs?
Deb
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11:27 am
December 9, 2009
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BuckeyeGirl
| | N.E. Ohio | |
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No, I' sure there's a human caretaker too. But one (or two?) human nearby, is NOT as social as you would want them to be for a family farm situation in my opinion, which is all this is after all, my opinion.
That article is about dogs in a different circumstance and I think those dogs were doing their jobs as they saw it, it's up to people to give them guidance in that job. Dogs out protecting a large flock in a wilderness situation that includes mountain lions, bobcats, coyotes, bears, possibly wolves if they had been closer to Yellowstone (wolves aren't back in the CO rockies yet, but the dogs would lay down their lives to do their jobs!). Humans, other than THEIR humans, probably WERE predators in those dog's minds.
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If tomatoes are a fruit, then isn’t ketchup technically a
smoothie?
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12:01 pm
December 9, 2009
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Gizmo
| | KY | |
| Mighty Chicken | posts 183 | |
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I read this article (or a version of it) on a Maremma email list. That version went into greater detail about the herd/guarding situation. To sum it up – the herd and their dogs were grazing, checked on by the caretaker (owners were out of town) and a bike race was taking place on the same land.
I'm truly sorry this woman was attacked!! However, she made a bad choice – continuing the race at sunset.
The dogs did their job – and paid for it with their lives. AND STILL THIS COUPLE WASN'T SATISFIED — Aside from losing 56% of his flock (no guardians to protect them), they recommended the owner spend time in jail.
This is a great deal more extreme than most of us will or do have.
I am no expert, but I do have seven LGDs — six Maremmas and one Pyr.
I assure you –
If you came over a hill on a bike, you'd be taken to the ground and bit. The severety would be determined by how close you are to their animals, how far one of us was from you and which one/s were in the area.
If you were acting suspiciously, or moved toward us in a threatening manner, 2-3 would stop you.
If we were not present, you would NOT get into our pasture/yard.
If you were harming my neighbor's children, they would go over the fence and stop you.
They are fed twice per day, and still hunt on their own. Each has their own personality, and place in the pack. I have watched them refuse to leave a newborn lamb/kid, because Mom left to get herself something to eat.
They are both loving and fierce…..it just depends on the situation.
You do not "TRAIN" an LGD. He is your partner, and you guide him through your relationship/partnership.
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Life is an adventure – Enjoy the ride!!!
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12:33 pm
December 9, 2009
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Pete
| | WV | |
| Moderator
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Not sure that it is terribly appropriate for any of us to address the specifics of an ongoing legal battle in which none of us is a party. While it is an interesting situation, and one in which many here might have an interest because of their own livestock and canine guards on their property, we need to watch that we do not put too much into the opinions others here may or may not share.
Just saying, that none of us here is all that expert or needs to be hammered because we either do or do not have an opinion. Of course, many of us have experiece with training various breeds of dogs or have been around an assortment of critters all our lives. But, this is not the venue for gaining expert advice on something this specific.
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Anulos qui animum ostendunt omnes gestemus!
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4:35 pm
December 9, 2009
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JeannieB
| | Columbia, South Carolina | |
| Superstar | posts 1453 | |
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I agree Pete, I'm no expert, but my guard dog Baby (a long hair chihuahua) will eat anyone who comes near me in an aggressive way. I'm not making fun of this situation, it is sad when anyone gets hurt by a dog who was doing his job.
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Don't cry because it's over—smile because it happened!
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5:35 pm
December 9, 2009
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farmershae
| | Happy Valley, OR | |
| Big Chicken | posts 13 | |
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Thank you for all your input. I've gotten the majority of my LGD info from the internet, and like I said, was suprised at the extent the dogs went to for protection of the flock. It makes more sense to me now, especially given that the dogs were guarding off the farm in a more unsupervised area.
Gizmo – thanks for sharing your personal experiences with the dogs – it is consistent with what I've read, but hearing it from a LGD owner reinforces to me how serious these dogs are about their jobs. I still plan on having them as my main defense against the predators
Buckeye Girl – very important points about taking into account the breeders and the parental aggression level. We plan to (eventually) keep our livestock and LGD's farm-bound (no open range for us) & will post good ole warning signs. This exact situation wouldn't happen, but we definitely plan to socialize them as much as possible and let them know people may come onto the farm that are not a threat.
Pete – totally understandable – I'm more looking for personal experience as opposed to expert advice. I won't hold anyone to what they say! I bring it up here since there are people that may have the dogs themselves or be interested in getting them. And of course Suzanne's Giant Puppy, Coco, is the same breed.
JeannieB – I agree totally – and my mini-dachshund is the best watch dog I could ever hope for!!
Thanks so much for all the info!
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6:43 pm
December 9, 2009
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Suzanne McMinn
| | Sassafras Farm in Roane County, WV | |
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All I can tell you is the experience we have had with Coco. We did treat her much like a pet in her puppyhood, so I'll say that, but also from everyone I've known who has Great Pyrs–they are truly loving and gentle giants to their people. Now, Coco is quite the guard dog. She has clear natural instincts. She spends the majority of her time now in the goat yard with the goats. Without any training from us whatsoever she displays numerous guardian traits that are natural and instinctive, bred in her. How she would react to a predator, I don't know as we have never yet had one enter the goat yard. But she "guards" in a very distinct way. She's working out there. (A good bit of a livestock guardian dog's job is preventative! They watch–and watch and watch at the fences and let predators KNOW they are watching.) Anyway, as far as people coming over here, she is gentle with everyone, including children. She is no attack dog on humans.
As far as liability, I haven't worried about it. For one thing, she's fenced in. If she leaves the goat yard, say for a walk, she is with us. (or on the porch–we take her to the porch quite a bit–other than that, she is confined to the goat yard with her charges!)
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8:30 pm
December 9, 2009
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quietstorm
| | Southern NH | |
| Mighty Chicken | posts 244 | |
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not an expert by any means but just adding my 2 cents….
we have dogs that have are not LGDs but that typically get a "bad rap"…
we have and 11yr old pit bull lab cross (female) who was a rescue from a crack house – she wouldnt hurt a fly and is afraid of dragonflies
we also have 3 dobermans – all from the same breeder
our 6yr old male is 95 lbs and stands almost 6 ft if he stands up on his back legs – he is very intimidating to look at – he is like a very goofy gangly teenager "marmaduke" (if anyone remebers that comic strip)
once when i took him to the vet, there was a gentleman that was checking out/picking up his dog. he was alone at the desk, his dog was still out back and there was no one else in the room except the 2 techs behind the counter. there was something about him my dog did not like, he started barking and lunging & it was all i could do to keep him under control. one of the techs came around and stood between my dog and the man until we could get him into one of the rooms….i dont know what it was…
our 3yrs old dobes are brother and sister from the same litter, brought home at the same time – they are like night and day…. the male is not quite as big as our other male & he should have been a hound dog…he is the most laid back, chilled out dog i have ever seen. he follows me EVERYWHERE, closer than my shadow… he is very protective of me and there are times he gets jealous and doesnt want any of the other dogs around me – his sister is typical dobe…. Always on high alert and ready to have a heart attack if a leaf on the tree blows -have to be VERY careful when anyone comes over with her
even though they were all raised the same they are all very different – just like kids
if you saw them in the house with us….they are spoiled rotten, they are allowed on the couch & sleep under the covers in bed, they get dried off with a towel when they come in from the rain or snow…they are such loves and give us all so much happiness but i feel bad for the poor fedex guy and the meter reader for the electric – they must pray that the windows hold!
I have no doubt that if anyone came into the house that wasnt supposed to be there or if they sensed that we were in danger that they would protect us
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8:11 am
December 10, 2009
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KateS
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| Super Chicken | posts 599 | |
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VERY interesting topic! One thing I do in class is pull back a dog's lips and show their teeth and tell people to marvel at their self control. Most dogs won't attack.
However – one thing I also tell them is not to worry about 'teaching' them to protect you. For most of them its instinct – they will at the very least alert bark if needed.
And there IS something to be said for breed specific behavior -the reasons we Get a certain breed of dog. Some things are more instinctive to some breeds than others.
They all need a job of some kind and take that job quite seriously.
Must go read the article that brought this up…
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8:58 am
December 10, 2009
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jane
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| Super Chicken | posts 534 | |
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My sister has 3 rescue dogs. One is a young pit bull who was left for dead after being run over. You have to watch her when she comes to my house. While she is friendly in her environment, she isnot outside of that. My son came over and rang the bell. I went to answer it and there is a long hallway to the door. When he entered, she ran and attacked him. I yelled for my sister who pulled him off before she did damage to my son's hand after tearing his shirt. When you take these dogs out, they need to be trained and on a leash – they are unpredictable. I am sure she thought hse was protecting the house but you cant live with that kind of behavior. People come and go in homes. She had to stay outside the rest of the day for fear she would continue to be aggressive to him. One other time she was aggressive to my father in law as well.
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10:08 am
December 10, 2009
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BuckeyeGirl
| | N.E. Ohio | |
| Admin
| posts 3992 | |
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KateS said:
VERY interesting topic! One thing I do in class is pull back a dog's lips and show their teeth and tell people to marvel at their self control. Most dogs won't attack.
However – one thing I also tell them is not to worry about 'teaching' them to protect you. For most of them its instinct – they will at the very least alert bark if needed.
And there IS something to be said for breed specific behavior -the reasons we Get a certain breed of dog. Some things are more instinctive to some breeds than others.
They all need a job of some kind and take that job quite seriously.
Must go read the article that brought this up…
Yes Kate, a lot of my thoughts and feelings on this topic are from having Border Collies and Australian Shepherds. They share SOME of the same instincts when it comes to guarding their charges. Though herding dogs also have a sometimes frenetic need to be doing something active towards that end… that's the 'herding' part of shepherd kicking in. Both types tend to have that protective thing going on. Best thing I ever did was send my one Aussie to be trained to herd with his breeder, it was pretty necessary because he was trying to herd EVERYTHING he saw, children, pigeons, other dogs, everything. I thought he was crazy till I realized he wasn't chasing, he was trying to herd with NO training or help to learn how. My other BCs and Aussies were less intense about it, and also, I understood them better and was more able to direct their energy after that experience.
That instinct and breed specific thing is very REAL and can lead to unfortunate results if we don't help them understand what to do with all their natural urges. Some dogs are perfectly happy being lap dogs, there's a lot of dogs that were bred to BE lap dogs. Other dogs that were bred to be working dogs need to WORK to be happy. We can redirect the instincts to other jobs… we don't need to go out and get a flock of sheep for a Border Collie etc, but they really need a job to feel right in their skins.
I hope I didn't/don't sound like I'm trying to look like some kind of expert about LGDs, I'm not. I know a little, but mostly it's a decent (MY OPINION ONLY!  ) understanding thanks to being old and having worked for horse trainers. around other animals, and having lots of dogs over the years.
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If tomatoes are a fruit, then isn’t ketchup technically a
smoothie?
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10:13 am
December 10, 2009
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ChrisUK
| | Netley Hampshire UK | |
| Mighty Chicken | posts 333 | |
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Pit Bull,are a banned species in the UK.We have had two cases this year alone of children being attacked and killed.The excuse they are so unpredictable does'nt wash any more Im afraid. A moments inattention,an inquizitive child and its too late.
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Im a lonely little Petunia in a Cabbage patch
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10:36 am
December 10, 2009
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BuckeyeGirl
| | N.E. Ohio | |
| Admin
| posts 3992 | |
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Moderator Comment:
This thread is getting a little off topic. Let's be careful not to take it too far into the touchy area of banning certain breeds. It isn't about which breeds may bite, they all can and do, it's the amount of damage a large powerful dog vs a small dog can do if/when they bite.
LGDs and other suitable farm/livestock dogs are the primary topic, otherwise we'll have to lock the thread.
Thank you for your understanding.
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If tomatoes are a fruit, then isn’t ketchup technically a
smoothie?
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5:28 pm
December 10, 2009
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Gizmo
| | KY | |
| Mighty Chicken | posts 183 | |
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BuckeyeGirl said:
Moderator Comment:
This thread is getting a little off topic. Let's be careful not to take it too far into the touchy area of banning certain breeds. It isn't about which breeds may bite, they all can and do, it's the amount of damage a large powerful dog vs a small dog can do if/when they bite.
LGDs and other suitable farm/livestock dogs are the primary topic, otherwise we'll have to lock the thread.
Thank you for your understanding.
BuckeyeGirl – I think I misread the thread. I thought it was about the liability a farmer may face with their LGDs.
Pete – you are correct. Nobody here can comment about a legal case that we are not party to. I do know that the case has met it finish. The owner was charged with jail time, at the recommendation of the lady's attorney, and both of the dogs were destroyed.
My advice for anyone wanting to use an LGD – research the breed. Just because you have livestock, doesn't necessarily mean you need an LGD. Just because you have some property, doesn't make it a farm….or appropriate for an LGD.
My situation is completely different than everyone else's….just as theirs is different from mine. I don't know that my dogs would be happy at Suzanne's, or vice versa. Just the same as the two boys I sold would probably not be happy back here with their parents and brothers.
The point is simple…..YOUR LGDs will adjust and settle into YOUR situation/farm, with its own unique challenges.
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Life is an adventure – Enjoy the ride!!!
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10:04 pm
December 10, 2009
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farmershae
| | Happy Valley, OR | |
| Big Chicken | posts 13 | |
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Again, thanks for all the input. The two things that I'm really reminded of reading thru all the comments is 1) all dogs are individual and 2) most breeds have innate characteristics that you need to PLAN to work with.
I've always marveled at dog breeds that have a job to do, whether it is guarding, herding, hunting, etc. They can make your life so much easier if you work together, and so much harder if you work against of the dog's natural instincts.
And Buckeye Girl - I've gone to several herding dog demonstrations – AMAZING. I'm kind of afraid to get one (if I were to need one) because I'm pretty sure they are smarter than I am!
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8:54 am
December 11, 2009
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Gizmo
| | KY | |
| Mighty Chicken | posts 183 | |
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farmershae said:
Again, thanks for all the input. The two things that I'm really reminded of reading thru all the comments is 1) all dogs are individual and 2) most breeds have innate characteristics that you need to PLAN to work with.
I've always marveled at dog breeds that have a job to do, whether it is guarding, herding, hunting, etc. They can make your life so much easier if you work together, and so much harder if you work against of the dog's natural instincts.
And Buckeye Girl - I've gone to several herding dog demonstrations – AMAZING. I'm kind of afraid to get one (if I were to need one) because I'm pretty sure they are smarter than I am! 
You're exactly right. Each LGD breed guards in a different manner, and you need to find the breed that is best for your situation. Then, you need to find the right partner within that breed.
I also breed/raise Entlebucher Mountain Dogs – Swiss Cattle dogs (herding breed). Depending on the day – they're DEFINITELY smarter than most. What I've found is that the herding breeds don't flaunt it. However, your LGD will point it out to you from time to time….ROFLOL.
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Life is an adventure – Enjoy the ride!!!
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1:46 pm
December 13, 2009
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Runningtrails – Sheryl
| | Barrie, Ontario | |
| Mighty Chicken | posts 452 | |
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I have always wanted a great pyranees dog and have found a female pup available. I am working out a trade in dog portraits, hopefully. I have researched them for years and would love to have one for my small farm! We need a guardian for our chickens and possible future rabbits and goats.
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Sheryl
providence-acres.blogspot.com
providenceacresfarm.com
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6:59 pm
December 13, 2009
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Gizmo
| | KY | |
| Mighty Chicken | posts 183 | |
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Runningtrails said:
I have always wanted a great pyranees dog and have found a female pup available. I am working out a trade in dog portraits, hopefully. I have researched them for years and would love to have one for my small farm! We need a guardian for our chickens and possible future rabbits and goats.
Good luck to you and your new pup. Pyrs are GREAT dogs! Pretty soon we'll be reading about HER adventures too. 
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Life is an adventure – Enjoy the ride!!!
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