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Help with CP liquid soap
April 29, 2013
5:51 pm
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barras007
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I recently came across a CP liquid soap recipe and made it.  Basically a standard recipe with Coconut oil, palm kernal oil, olive oil, and I recalculated the recipe to include shea butter.  But after sitting a few days it is separating from creamy to clear.  Is this normal? Or is there something I need to do to fix this if it is fixable.

I would really appreciate any advice that can be given and realize you do liquid soap in the HP method.

April 30, 2013
11:43 am
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Amerayl
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I haven’t gotten around to trying CP liquid soap as yet, but it is on my list. From what I understand, this is normal. It is a separation of the unsaponified oils from the soap. Shea butter has a lot of unsaponifiables so it usually isn’t recommended for liquid soap if you are looking for a perfectly clear liquid soap. Did you use a lye excess? I like using the Summer Bee Meadow lye calculator for liquid soap, they take into account the lack of purity in KOH. Anyhow, this is the reason you sequester liquid soap before using it. I hope that helps a bit.

May 1, 2013
11:22 am
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barras007
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Thank you I will do that. I wanted the shea butter and didn’t really care if it was creamy or clear.  I just don’t want the separation.   Is there any way to fix this? 

May 1, 2013
11:25 am
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barras007
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Also the soap which I have already bottled is now solid.  I really do need some help if there is any out there.

May 1, 2013
11:29 am
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CindyP
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What recipe did you use?  It’s really hard to help figure it out without the beginning recipe happy-flower

“Learn all you can from the mistakes of others. You won’t have time to make them all yourself.”  ― Alfred Sheinwold

May 1, 2013
3:58 pm
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barras007
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7oz coconut oil

9.6oz olive oil

7oz palm kernal

8.4oz shea butter

12oz water and 6.4 KOH lye

followed the directions for the CP liquid soap recipe I was following and after 24 hours mixed in the extra water.  40 oz.

 

the soap paste was firm and added hot water and mixed to loosen it up.  I also let this sit for another 2 days before  bottling it.  It started separating soon after so I let it sit while trying to get an answer about this.  Now it is solid in the bottle.  I’ve thought about setting it in the hottest water available without boiling and loosening it up but don’t know where to go from that point.

 

I truly appreciate any help there is

May 2, 2013
6:45 am
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CindyP
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I haven’t gotten around to the CP liquid soap either….  

I ran this recipe through Summer Bee’s calculator, and it looks like this soap is superfatted at 12%??  That’s a huge superfat amount for liquid soap…it leaves a lot unsaponifiable oil, which gives separation (water and oil don’t mix).  

I think your solid mass is from not enough dilution water.  40 ounces is just 8 ounces more than the total oils used in this recipe.  I’m trying to find my cheat sheet and not finding it.  I make mostly olive and coconut oils liquid soap and I use a 3:1 water to paste.  So I would have used around 120 ounces of dilution water for a 2 pound recipe.  Your recipe may not be this high, but I just can’t see it diluting with that low amount of water.

I would melt it (without melting the bottles you have it in!) and add more dilution water.  Did you add any essential or fragrance oils already?  If you did, heating the soap and adding boiling water will evaporate the fragrance most likely.  Just add more.

“Learn all you can from the mistakes of others. You won’t have time to make them all yourself.”  ― Alfred Sheinwold

May 2, 2013
10:50 am
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barras007
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Cindy,      Thank you so much!  Will the separated oils mix back in or just pour those off.  Luckily I haven’t added any EO or FO at this point so am at least a step ahead.  I have my bottles in the sink with the hottest water available and will leave until melted enough to reheat and add more water.  This is so encouraging.  I do appreciate it.

 

It was also suggested that I use the lye caculator on Summer Bee Meadow as this is a liquid soap caculator, so will start doing that and may have to break down and do the hot process method for liquid soap.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you

 

I will report my progress.  Hopefully I haven’t ruined 2 lbs of oils

May 2, 2013
12:26 pm
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CindyP
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Is there a huge amount of separation?  I make mine with a 3% superfat calculated in and over time some floats to the top…I just shake the bottle.  It makes a nice conditioning soap :)  If you think there’s too much, dump some off.

I wouldn’t let it be a waste of oil…as long as it cleans, it’s not a waste happy-flower

Just a question…since I haven’t CP’d liquid soap.  What type of stuff did you have before you diluted it?  Was it a paste?  

“Learn all you can from the mistakes of others. You won’t have time to make them all yourself.”  ― Alfred Sheinwold

May 2, 2013
12:53 pm
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barras007
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There isn’t a huge amount of separation and I will be honest, I used the mid range of 5-8% of excess fat.  Apparently liquid soap is much different.  Never wanted to deal with the hot process method since I’ve always made CP soap.  I went on SBM’s lye calculator and found I should have used at least 1oz of lye more and quite a bit more water in the making of the soap.

 

With the CP method it was a very firm mass, not a paste.  But if this works, and I am having to cut it out of the bottles :(, I will probably do this again but using the better calculator.  Luckily I got a great deal on the bottles so destroying a few isn’t going to kill me. 

 

Hopefully by the end of today I will have this finished and see how it is.

 

Thanks

May 2, 2013
4:00 pm
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CindyP
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barras007 said
There isn’t a huge amount of separation and I will be honest, I used the mid range of 5-8% of excess fat.  Apparently liquid soap is much different.  Never wanted to deal with the hot process method since I’ve always made CP soap.  I went on SBM’s lye calculator and found I should have used at least 1oz of lye more and quite a bit more water in the making of the soap.

 

 

Well, like bar soap, superfatting is extra oil…which ends up being the separation that you see in the liquid soap, which I don’t mind at all :)  Much easier than making it with lye excess to make a completely clear transparent liquid.

Did you test for caustic before diluting?

“Learn all you can from the mistakes of others. You won’t have time to make them all yourself.”  ― Alfred Sheinwold

May 3, 2013
11:03 am
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Amerayl
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I’d try the things Cindy P has suggested. Sorry I dropped off, I have some sickies in my family. Any who, I understand with liquid soap that superfatting up to 3% is the most recommended, those most I’ve talked to only use a 2% superfat. One reason I don’t like liquid soap too much.

Also it seems that CP liquid soap is alright for the liquid oils, but if you have a lot of the solid oils you should HP. The cook helps make sure they are saponified I guess.

I re-joined the liquid soapmakers yahoo group. It seems to be a little nicer and more helpful than when I had first joined. One thing I love about the group is that they don’t seem to care if the soap is perfectly clear or not. I have decided because of their discussions that I don’t care if the dilution causes the soap to be thin. It is the natural of this soap. I’m just going to thicken it with some HEC or Xanthan gum  or salt brine.

I recently made some liquid laundry soap and oh my, do I just love it. This I don’t mind if it is thin. Love, love, love this type of laundry soap.

I hope you are able to fix your soap. LOL, I remember having a few bottles do that a time or two. Not fun at all!

Hmmm, I wonder if using a tiny bit of NaOH in a batch would help with the CP liquid soap. Oh I think I need to experiment!

May 4, 2013
11:09 am
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barras007
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Thank you Amerayl, 

What I’ve done so far, and had to leave it at that point, was to cut the soap out of the bottles(cut the bottles apart) and scoop out the soap paste, which is white and I left the separated clear oil in the bottles maybe for my own use.  I thought I would melt this back down in crock pot, neutralize it (it has very high ph) and then add my extra water.  I have alot of the paste so I thought I would start with a pound and see how that works.  I don’t want it too thin so will just take my time till I get it right.  I knew adding shea would result in not having a clear soap but that was ok with me.  I have bought hand soap that is creamy not clear.

 

I really appreciate all the advice you and Cindy have given me.  Will keep you posted on my progress and hopefully success.sun

May 8, 2013
12:03 pm
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barras007
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Well, since I last wrote, I have added more hot water, 16 oz of water to 16 oz of paste,  neutralized it and added glycerin and waited 2 more days, and I still have water thin soap that has separated.  I am coming to the conclusion that this method for me did not work. 

Since I do want to make liquid soap, shower gel, et al, I guess I will try the hot process method. 

 

Thanks to both of you for your help

May 8, 2013
12:33 pm
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Amerayl
Bisbee, AZ
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Aw, sorry it didn’t work out for you. Hot Process liquid soap isn’t so bad really. Michele Collins of Green Girl bath and body has some YouTube videos about liquid soap that I liked. At least with liquid soap you don’t have to worry about how it looks in the end. happy-flower

May 8, 2013
3:49 pm
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barras007
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Thanks, I will look and research it all before I start.  Have been doing CP soap for a very long time and was hoping to be able to do liquid the same way.

May 11, 2013
7:57 am
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CindyP
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Sorry it didn’t work out no  But at least you tried!  I really think HP would be faster in this case than CP….only need a crock pot.  

“Learn all you can from the mistakes of others. You won’t have time to make them all yourself.”  ― Alfred Sheinwold

May 11, 2013
8:05 am
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CindyP
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You shouldn’t have been needing to neutralize!!!  When you neutralize you’re reducing the pH, which leads to even more separation…and it started with a large superfat.

 

This is a reason to never use vinegar to mix with homemade soap for a cleaner….vinegar neutralizes lye and takes it back to water and oil.

“Learn all you can from the mistakes of others. You won’t have time to make them all yourself.”  ― Alfred Sheinwold

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